Outlaw Meets Perfectionist with Jenna Teague and Ashley Looker

Speaker 1 (00:04):

Jenna, Ashley, welcome to entrepreneurial Outlaws. I am so excited to have you here today. Have this conversation with you. Thank you for being here as well. I mean so much to me.

Speaker 2 (00:18):

Oh, I am so excited. Yes.

Speaker 1 (00:23):

So for anyone listening to the outlets, listening who don't know either of you don't know F perfect or middle fingers to perfection could you, Ashley, could you just introduce a little bit around why this is such an important conversation especially for women and especially for those of us who struggling with perfection in lives and businesses?

Speaker 2 (00:54):

Oh my gosh. Well, it's so important because perfect. Doesn't exist. Let's just start with that. Right? Like I think that so many of us are taught to seek out perfection or you know, to start at the perfect time or when you feel ready. And the truth of the matter is that is never going to happen. And if we constantly are striving for perfection, we're always going to fall short. And, and so that is why I think this conversation is so important to have, because I know for me, even after being in recovery from perfectionism for, I don't know, seven, 10 years, it still comes up for me, it is something that I think is ingrained in a lot of our thinking and being, I know my perfectionism started at a very, very young age you know, trying to feel approved of, or pleasing my parents or other people, and those patterns are hard to overcome. So I think this conversation is more important. I don't know. Maybe, I don't know, maybe not more than ever, but it's important, nonetheless.

Speaker 1 (02:24):

Yeah. Well, I think it's, I think it's so interesting because you know, here entrepreneurial outlook is we're talking about bucking trends and challenging the status quo, and it kind of feels like combining this rebel meets perfection or this outlaw meets perfectionist, it feels like these two things should, well, they are opposite ends of the scale. And yet I identify as both very much so past present and probably future. And I think I know the answer to this, but Jenna, how do you navigate both outlaw and perfectionism in your own personal and professional life?

Speaker 3 (03:13):

That's such a great question. I think my conceptualization is that my outlaw rebel is a little bit of an antidote to my perfectionist people pleaser. In that I think sometimes the striving to be so perfect becomes unwieldy and unmanageable. And my outlaw rebel is like my release valve for that, you know, my permission that I give myself to completely buck the system and let go of all of the standards that I normally hold myself to. Now, ideally I wouldn't need to ping pong back and forth between those two poles.

Speaker 2 (04:14):

And I would

Speaker 3 (04:14):

Find more of a happy middle ground, which is something I'm working toward. I almost think that the, the outlaw rebel is like a little aspirational for me as a perfectionist, like, Ooh, look at that bad girl. Or,

Speaker 2 (04:34):

You know, look at that bad.

Speaker 3 (04:36):

I could be, I could be her. And I think that inspires me to like loosen my grip on perfectionism and people pleasing just a little bit.

Speaker 1 (04:47):

Yeah. I love the word you used there, anecdote like that. I was like writing that down because that, to me, you know, that's the thing, right? It's how do you use it? Ping pong between the two. And I think that's built, resonates with me very much. Like every single day, every single week, especially professionally navigating between my perfectionist ways. And then where is my limit? Where is perfectionism then going to spill over into being, you know, maybe a hindrance in actually getting things done versus screw this, this. I'm going to do whatever the hell I like, you know, it's, it's that ping pong, as you said. So that's I, yeah. I love that.

Speaker 2 (05:37):

I feel like, yeah, Jenna and I always talk about like how, like sometimes we overshoot things like when, if we're trying to get more in touch with that outlaw, we might literally swing to the completely other side of the pendulum. Right. And just like middle fingers up, like, all this, you know? And then it's like, Ooh, okay. Maybe that you was a little far on that end of the spectrum. Like how do we kind of come back a little bit? So yeah. Jenna, I love the way that you just explain that.

Speaker 1 (06:10):

Yeah. And it's interesting. Cause I was just thinking that it's, it's almost like the idea of zero given perhaps we need to give some to like the right thing. It's that, it's that kind of idea that we can create change from anger. We certainly can, but whereas like the limit, like where is all threshold for out Lauren was a threshold for perfectionism.

Speaker 2 (06:40):

Yes. I love that too. And I feel like it's all about, especially for me, because I'm like Jenna said, I'm really trying to figure out like who Ashley, the outlaw is. It takes a lot of like experimenting with that and what it could possibly look like, you know? So, yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:03):

Okay. So on that subject, speaking of which, who is Ashley? The outlaw?

Speaker 2 (07:12):

Oh, kinda like let us in there deny, Oh my gosh. Who is Ashley? That outlaw? Well because Ashley, the perfectionist is very rigid and very like high achieving overachieving. Procrastinating a lot. I would say that Ashley, the outlaw is so much more in tune with her intuition and she gives herself permission to slow down instead of like going, going, going, doing, doing, doing, like trying to keep up with all the other entrepreneurs out there. I feel like Ashley, that outlaw is carving her own path and building her own way of doing things. Yeah. So I am, like I said, I'm still trying to get to know her a little bit more, but that's my hunch that that's, that's who she is.

Speaker 1 (08:18):

Yeah. And I think part of that, the reason it's a process is because tapping into our intuition and tapping in to an outlaw spirit are a low mindset. It's not necessarily what we're taught to do, you know, w we're taught to be quiet, take up less space. And so being an entrepreneur, being an outlaw and not just an entrepreneurial outlook, but it's, it's like, no, this is the amount of space I'm taking up and this is how I'm doing it. Right. 

Speaker 2 (08:52):

I love that idea of like taking up space, Melanie.

Speaker 1 (08:57):

Yeah. And that being enough space for all of us Outlaws.

Speaker 2 (09:01):

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (09:04):

Yeah. Okay. So we have a little hashtag around here, hashtag WW, O D what would Outlaws do? And this is often saved for, you know, those moments where I'm like, w these moments of despair where I'm like, well, what the would an outlet do right now? Because Lord, I probably need to ask myself that question on a daily basis. But especially in business, I, you know, I know the weekend gets so stuck. Quiel the thing we get. We overcompensate we become overwhelmed by our thoughts. So I'm curious, Jenna, what would it outlook do in, what would you think an outlet would do when that perfectionism and people pleasing is impacting their decision making or their clarity in their business?

Speaker 3 (09:59):

Well, I'm going to have to just completely steal what Ashley said, which

Speaker 2 (10:05):

They would happen to their interruption.

Speaker 3 (10:09):

Yeah. I, when you said that, Ash, I hadn't really thought about that before that an outlaw allows themself to be guided by their intuition rather than those external sheds and comparisons and benchmarks. So yeah,

Speaker 2 (10:31):

I think that that

Speaker 3 (10:32):

Definitely applies to business. Right. There's so much comparison that we do as entrepreneurs. And there are so many numbers to track. We talk a lot about on, on our podcast, middle finger to perfection, that anything that has a metric attached to it is like crap

Speaker 2 (10:52):

For a perfectionist. Yeah. Yeah. Even to see how you're measuring up. Right. It's a tough one

Speaker 3 (11:04):

Around it, by those as entrepreneurs, you know, engagement ratios and follower counts and income, you know, streams and, you know, subscribers and all that. And so I think my inner outlaw says, that noise. Right. What, what do I actually want aside from what all the articles tell me to do and all the gurus and all the multiple six figure entrepreneurs? Like, what do I want?

Speaker 2 (11:36):

Yes. Oh my gosh. I love that. Jenna. It's like the like seeking, because I know for me, especially when I first started as an entrepreneur, it was like, give me all the guidance, like all the gurus, all the experts, like I'm just going to follow X, Y, Z step one, two, three of all these people, right. To get to this idea of success that I don't even really resonate with, but this is what quote unquote looks like. And I feel like the outlaw is so much more internally seeking her own guidance and validation. Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:13):

And, you know, it's so interesting that you touched on when we start our business, because I often think about how, when we, and I think it's the same for most of us, when we start a business, we often don't have all the answers. I mean, we never have all the houses, but we often feel like we don't have any offices. And we, and we look outside to learn and we're like these little entrepreneurial sponges and we learn everything. And we saw a couple of this information. And at the same time we're being told, you know, I'm good enough as perfect or good enough is enough. And we're being told not to, to wait. And we're being told to do it messy. But at the same time, we're often being told these things in a way that feels perfect. We're being told these things with these metrics and these numbers behind it. You know, I talk a lot on here about Instagram and especially strategies and small audiences. And it's like being told you don't need a big audience to grow your business by someone who has 3.5 million followers, it feels really difficult to, to understand.

Speaker 1 (13:28):

And, you know, it's, it's, it's just a really interesting idea of this, this catnip, right? This perfectionism and these numbers. And I, I'm so interested to know how these numbers affect your ability to listen to your intuition. Like, where does this come up for you,

Speaker 2 (13:53):

Melanie, this is Jenna. And you want to take this one?

Speaker 3 (13:59):

I mean, I think the numbers are, for me, the numbers become a tool that my perfectionism uses to beat myself up for not doing enough. Yeah. Right. Or to motivate myself to do more. They're just a tool, you know? And sometimes they can be a healthy tool and sometimes more often than not, when my perfectionist is taking the wheel they're, they're not helpful. They obscure my ability to listen to myself because I'm so focused on chasing them. Ding, I totally

Speaker 2 (14:52):

Agree with Jenna. Yes. Oh my gosh. More often than not those metrics can lead me into a very dark place. And I think that's not where the outlaw lives no shining. Yeah. Living in her light.

Speaker 1 (15:14):

Yeah. The outlook doesn't give a about how many numbers and, and, and I, it's so interesting, isn't it? Because again, we're kind of with total, these, this narrative around not doing things perfectly, we're taught this narrative around, showing up and what these things look like. We've been taught how to supposedly build know like, and trust. And I'm using air quotes because I would makes me want to vomit in my mouth, but we taught these things. And then at the same time, there's like this benchmark that is not, it's the exception to the rule. It's not quote normal. And it's like, the bar keeps on moving, which I think happens with a lot of numbers. Yeah. You know, we move the goalposts. It's never enough and it's never going to be enough and not perfection one, let it.

Speaker 2 (16:13):

Exactly, exactly. And that's why I feel like it's so important. And Melanie, I feel like you talk about this a lot is like just defining what success looks like for you. And I feel like for me lately, it's looking more and more like joy. Like how much joy can I infuse into my business every single day? What can I do? That's going to bring me joy. And hopefully, you know, my audience, my clients joy as well. That's really helping me kind of unhook from those external metrics. It's like, Oh, just living from a place and creating from a place of joy more and more often.

Speaker 1 (17:00):

Yeah. Jenna, how about you? What does your outlook self live in, in relation to, you know, creating content or being visible online or how you run the show?

Speaker 3 (17:19):

Yeah. I think my outlaw knows that any kind of, fake persona that I put on is not going to attract people to me like male or knows that I just need to show up as I am and let people see me as I am and my full authenticity and that that's, what's really going to attract people to me. And that's, what's really going to work in my business. And that's, what's going to get the results that I want, not some external strategy, not some carefully constructed identity but really just being vulnerable and being visible and being myself. Yes.

Speaker 2 (18:18):

Oh, I just feel like I have like such a huge smile on my face over here. That's exactly what I was thinking too. Jenna was just like being you in your business, right? Like, like you said, John, I'm not some carefully constructed, like buttoned up unless that's who you authentically are, like shedding that getting rid of that and just fully being who you're meant to be in your business. Oh. That just inspires the hell out of me. And that's one of the reasons why I love what you're doing so much. Melanie, thank you so needed. So needed. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:59):

And, and you know what I mean, obviously I believe it is needed. And it's also absolutely terrifying for me at times as well, because I know we've had this conversation before, but it's like being too much being too, you know, is that too much of a sassy post on Instagram? Am I going to upset some people? And I'm never doing anything to upset people, but sometimes, you know what needs to be said, because it is maybe challenging the norm. Isn't going to please everyone. And it's, and again, feeding into kids for me. I mean, people placing is like a real thing. And especially people I don't know, which is just, renderable like, I don't know you, but I want to please, you great. I don't know how to please you, but I'm going to try. And, and it happens with content a lot.

Speaker 1 (19:53):

And especially because I know that right now there is, and has been for, well over a year, this big there's big question, which is like, what do I say? What do I say? How does my content become valuable and relevant? And that can lead us into this kind of back and forth, like to use your wedge and a ping pong between, I want to say this, but I should say this. I shouldn't be too much. I shouldn't be too loud. I should. And then this is, this is where that the added go comes in, right. The intuition and being able to use that intuition and tap into that side of our creativity. And it's, it's funny, cause we've used, we've talked about it a little bit, but the authenticity side of things about being ourselves permission to be ourselves in our business online. And I I'm so curious, would you say I'm interested to know, is there like one area of your business where it has really kind of blocked your own authenticity?

Speaker 2 (21:08):

Ooh, that was a really good question.

Speaker 1 (21:16):

I mean, to me, I feel like it's Instagram.

Speaker 3 (21:19):

I w I was just going to say, I'm like, I don't know if this is what you're asking, but a social media. Yeah. Cause that's, that's that's the only social media I, I I get down with at this point in time,

Speaker 1 (21:36):

Which I think is very aloe cause otherwise we're trying to be everywhere, but it's, it's, I'm just so curious because I feel as though the narrative we see is, you know, to be our authentic selves and we see people trying to teach us how to be authentic, which are just, it drives me crazy because I'm like, you can't teach authenticity. It's like it comes from women. And at the same time we're being taught this with like these rules. And, you know, I think especially Instagram, one of those main places that it does, this is, you know, the, the need for us to constantly be on that, the need for us to quote, be consistent, which I just think consistent just somehow means all the time. And I'm not, I'm not great with this either, but it's, it feels like that constantly is like eating away. And I always joke on here. It's like, it's the platform that everyone loves to hate because it's like, we think it's great for our business, but we also hate it.

Speaker 2 (22:39):

Yep. I can relate to that. Yeah. I feel like it comes at, it keeps coming back to intuition for me, Melanie, which is so interesting. I'm not even sure if I completely realize that, but like, just thinking about how difficult it is sometimes on Instagram when I'm just like, I'm just not inspired to like pull something, but then it forced myself because I need to stay consistent. And I'm working with all these external standards and expectations versus like, no Ash, like, it's cool. Like you don't have to post today. You don't have to like, get in CAMBA and create something because you feel like you should like, just being more, just listening more to ourselves, our intuition and like giving ourselves that space and that grace. Yeah, yeah. Not easy though. Not always music

Speaker 3 (23:38):

She's fired up. Y'all she has. And I like that. You're like, Oh man, I'm exhausted by how fire them.

Speaker 1 (23:47):

I'm going to take a nap.

Speaker 2 (23:49):

It's so true though. Right? Like these external standards and expectations are exhausting. So it's yeah. Yeah. What gives me life and makes me feel alive and aligned in my business as a, working from a soul centered, intuitive place more and more often, maybe not all the time. I don't know if that's a hundred percent possible perfectionist, but more and more often is good. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:21):

Yeah. Well, okay. Speaking of working within our businesses before this, I was looking through your website. I mean, not that, that was my first time doing it, but you have this quote. I'm not sure if I'm going to pronounce the name correctly. Mastin Mastin KIPP. Okay. So you have this quote on your website and like, I read it and I was like, Oh, well that just knocked me down. And I'm pretty sure that every single outlet listening will resonate with us. So the court says perfectionism is a dream killer because it's just fear disguised as trying to do your best. I feel like there needs to be this collective brief. Okay. So that court just like got me, because I think I literally wrote something in my journal maybe a day or two ago about doing my best. Like I'm just going to do my best. I was like, what the is my doing my best anyway, who is measuring that? Where does that start? And then, yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:25):

And

Speaker 1 (25:27):

I would, you know, I wonder whether I would love to know, I'm curious to know whether doing your best or trying to do your best can even co-exist with intuition as when, you know, without law being an outlook can doing your best to co-exist with being an owl

Speaker 2 (25:49):

Million dollar question right here. Thoughts. Yeah. Yeah. I believe Jenna. Jenna, are you there?

Speaker 3 (26:05):

I mean, honestly, I think it depends on the meaning that, that we make on an individual level of what doing our best is. Because as that quote says, like doing our best can be like just a perfectionism with a mask on, you know, like it's just a disguise perfectionism. But if doing our best means being our most authentic self, being our most connected self being our most like compassionate self, compassionate, intuitive self, if that's how we think you're being our best, then hell yes. I think that can coexist with being an outlaw.

Speaker 2 (26:50):

Yeah. I, I agree. I think one of the words that you said, Jenna, that is so important with this one is that compassion. I think that's essential because I know for me, I can find myself like, Oh, you did your best, but you could've done this a little bit better or, but could you have tried a little bit harder? Right. And so I think that that compassion in there is incredibly important if those two want to coexist. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:26):

Yeah. I, and I guess it's also about doing your best, not being perfect, like understanding what that, you know, having some kind of internal scale of where of knowing and leading with compassion, knowing where, okay, this, this is my best, this is, this is, or being able to tap into our intuition again and saying, okay, right now this is how much energy I have to put into this project. So I'm not going to go if my energy is a five, I'm not going to go at 12 because I can't get there.

Speaker 2 (28:00):

Yes. Ooh. I love that Melanie like that energy check-in yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:09):

The key word that stood out to me of what you said, Melanie was internally.

Speaker 2 (28:14):

Yes.

Speaker 3 (28:16):

Yeah. As long as we're checking within, I think we're much less likely to get sucked into a perfectionistic version of doing our best.

Speaker 1 (28:30):

Yeah. Because our outlaw self and our perfectionist self will show down when we look outside of ourselves Francis. So, you know, I always think of launches as my example because I hate launching. So I use that as my that's like, I just, you know, I never had to launch again, I'd be happy. And I feel like that's my place where I'm always trying to lean into more outlaw than anything else, because it takes so much energy and it's, there's so much wa and like connection and with putting so much on ourselves, and this is where those two things show down because I'm like, well, I could have done more. And like, let's know, I've been told by coaches, you could have done more. You never do. And I'm just like, yeah, yeah. But it's, it's, it's like as if my inner critic could have just signed that. Right. And, and I feel like it's, it's trying keep me safe. And I, and I get that, but it's also like, no, not today.

Speaker 2 (29:46):

No, no. I love how you use this with your launches, Melanie. I'm going to totally steal that. Like the out, you know, the showdown. Like, I, I love that.

Speaker 1 (29:59):

I just had this like Western theme where there's doors. I don't know what those doors are called, but those doors.

Speaker 2 (30:05):

Yeah. So it's like yours, the swinging doors. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:10):

Maybe I should do more of that in my launches. It'd be more fun.

Speaker 2 (30:14):

Oh my gosh. I'd love it. If that's what your rebel wants, it would be more fun. Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:23):

There exactly lies the question that we should be asking ourselves with. Anything is like, what do, what do we want and what do we need and not what does Instagram or anywhere else tell me I should be doing. Cause I've had you both say that quite a few times with like the shirt

Speaker 2 (30:38):

And

Speaker 1 (30:40):

The shirting on ourselves. I feel like that's such a, it's such a trap.

Speaker 2 (30:48):

Yeah. And to have your coach co-sign on the shooting I'm mad at who said that to you? My outlaw. Once a showdown with them. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:05):

No, and exactly. And I think, but so many, you know, I, I think we are seeing a new path. We're seeing people forging new paths and not following now, but it's, it's not, you know, it's not it's still smaller amounts of people, you know, creating this new noise, creating these new ways of doing business creating these intuitive strategies. And it's, it's, you know, this is like for me two years into the unpacking and the unboxing and I'm still not, I mean, I don't know if I'm ever going to be in there wherever there is, but it's, you know, the, the, the trauma and the experience of being told, you're not enough. And you're not doing enough by people you are investing in. That's like, that is a lot to unpack. And it's, it's also the narrative we see

Speaker 2 (32:00):

Online. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:04):

You know, in launches sales pages, whatever it might be playing on those kinds of fears and those pain points,

Speaker 2 (32:17):

And you are changing that. And Melanie will be in the saloon until 12 in the out of the shed. Oh, okay.

Speaker 1 (32:30):

So I have a question for each of you. I will, I'll ask each of you separately, but Jenna, what does being an entrepreneurial mean to

Speaker 3 (32:40):

You? Yeah, it just sounds yummy.

Speaker 2 (32:50):

Yes. Give me all the entrepreneur Muriel. Outlaw. Yes.

Speaker 3 (32:55):

Yeah. I think it means not to be like too literal on the Western theme, but like, it means staking my own claim, you know, and, and, and being, being on the forefront, like you said, like people who are leading and not following, it's not that I have a desire to like lead people, but that I'm leading myself that are not following anyone else. I'm leading myself based on my intuition. I'm going places that not everyone is going or in taking routes that not everyone is taking, because that's what resonates with me. And yeah. And, and that, because of that, I get to do things in my own way, you know, just like the OutWest settlers got to forge their own path. Like, that's kind of how I, I see it. Like, I will just have my own playground and do my own thing and follow my own intuition. And that will attract the people who are aligned with that vibe. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:09):

I just feel like I see me and Melanie, like just jogging over to your playground right now. Like I want to join this outlaw playground over here

Speaker 3 (34:21):

When there's no one right way that we're chasing when there's no perfectionistic ideal, we can appreciate each of our own unique ways of doing things so much more because we're not constantly comparing them to some idealized version. Hmm. Yes. Oh my God.

Speaker 2 (34:47):

Actually, same

Speaker 3 (34:48):

Question actually.

Speaker 2 (34:51):

Okay. I mean, I just want to second everything that Jen said, and I would just add that being an entrepreneurial outlaw to me means unsubscribing to the belief that being an entrepreneur, where it needs to be hard and that I need to hustle and that I need to sacrifice time with my family, my health things that I enjoy my creativity being in nature that I needed to sacrifice all these things that bring you so much joy in order to be successful. That. No, like being an entrepreneurial outlaw means putting those things at the top of my list. It means creating more fun in my business. I think it's possible. I think it's possible. I'm trying to do it more and more every single day. And I'm yeah. I'm unsubscribing from the hard and the hustle and subscribing to easy and fun and joy. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:58):

Unsub scribe.

Speaker 2 (36:00):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (36:03):

I do not when your emails anymore. Yeah. Oh, okay. That was, they were both of your answers, just so, so unique again, which is the whole point, right? Creating your own path, creating your own outlaw business and your own truth. And that only comes from intuition and knowing what that looks like for you and leaning into that and doing more of that. So I love that. Thank you so much for sharing those, those answers, because I think everyone listening is going to get so much from your own perspectives. And also knowing that we can, we can do this. We can, it takes time, but we can unpack and we can do this and we can create our own entrepreneurial outlook journey and that it can be what you want it to be, you know, playground, nature, joy, whatever you want it to be. Thank you so much for coming on today and having this conversation with me, because I just wanted to also say, which I forgot to mention the beginning.

Speaker 1 (37:18):

This feels a little full cycle for me. Bearing in mind, I was on your podcast what three years ago. And they gave me the, the podcast bug. And I was like, that was where it all started. It just took me three years to finally get hit. So thank you for, for being here and thank you for, for sharing your stories with us. Could you let Ashley, could you let everybody know where they can find you, you guys, your podcast, can they find more about you and what you do and just fell in love with you?

Speaker 2 (37:54):

Yes. So Jen and I, you can find us well, like we mentioned, we like to hang out on Instagram. It's the only place where F perfect exists. So we're over on Instagram at F perfect. So come hang out with us over there. And you guys can listen into the middle finger to perfection podcast on Apple podcasts or Spotify and our website. You can take the pledge to give your middle fingers to perfection over@fperfect.com.

Speaker 3 (38:24):

And Melanie, I just want to say, thank you so much for creating this space for entrepreneurial Outlaws everywhere. And I also want to say maybe three years was exactly the right time that your outlaw needed to create this podcast. So yeah,

Speaker 1 (38:47):

It fell on deaf ears three years ago. Right? I think it needed to. Yeah, no, I a hundred percent agree. And I think sometimes there is a right time and

Speaker 3 (38:54):

Sometimes there is a wrong time. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:57):

So I agree, but thank you. Thank you so much for being here. I will make sure that everything is linked in the show notes. So all the Outlaws listening can find your podcast, find your voice on Instagram and just really navigate this perfection and outlaw ping pong match. More easily with more grace and compassion. Thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (39:25):

Thank you. Thank you.