Ethics & Unconscious Bias in Marketing with Anyo Green

Melanie Knights (00:00:01):

You're listening to entrepreneurial Outlaws, a podcast for creatives, introverts, empaths, and spiritual folks who want to grow a sustainable and impactful business on their own terms. We here to meet you at the intersection of strategy spirituality and self-inquiry so that we can create our own versions of success and grow businesses that serve our personal goals and creativity. Just as much as it serves our audiences together, we are paving the way for a new normal and online business. One that allows you to lean into what makes you and your business unique. And I'm your host, Melanie Knights, storyteller, and outlaw mentor with a nose of other. I'm here to help you unpack the bro marketing strategies and entrepreneurial myths that lead us to overthink our business decisions because overthinking is a feminist issue, the antidote, your intuition. So get ready as each week. We have the messy, honest, and transparent conversations about entrepreneurship. The kind that's missing from the highlight reels of our social media feeds. We're uncovering the real stories behind what it takes to run a sustainable online business on your own terms, the highs, the lows and everything in between, ready to break the rules and become an entrepreneurial outlook. Let's do this.

Melanie Knights (00:01:29):

Hey friends, welcome to episode 30 of entrepreneurial Outlaws. Today, we are joined by our really special guests, and I am very excited for you to listen into this conversation. So we are joined by Ann you're from Northern be marketing, you know, and you and I connected on Instagram about a year ago. And over the last year has been a wild ride. We have never got to met. We never got to me, even though we live in the same country because well COVID, and at the same time, we've ended up growing our businesses, walking together on the clients. And it has been just really, really great Johnny and the Johnny is not ending, but it's been a really, really great journey so far. And we have, we have so many conversations on a weekly basis. That's for us to sit down for, I guess, an hour and have this conversation that you get to listen to is really important because we talked about things that we've, we've maybe spoken briefly about, but we've never really dug in in this way.

Melanie Knights (00:02:32):

And I guess every, every so often we would have a conversation privately and I'd be like, we need to talk about this in the podcast. So that's, what's happening today. You are getting to listen to a culmination of conversations that we've had briefly over the past year in today's episode. I knew when I are going to sit down to talk about ethical marketing, we're going to talk about quick tips for Instagram and how you can actually build an ethical marketing without following all of the rules and the status quo. And we also have a really great conversation about unconscious bias and how this affects decisions entrepreneurs of color may make. And it was really gracious to sitting down and telling us how this has come up in her own business. She really opened up about what this looks like because I had questions and I wanted to understand, you know, where do we need to be doing more work?

Melanie Knights (00:03:24):

Where do we need to be digging into one conscious bias is how this shows itself in online business. And she gave some really great examples which we'll get to here. So this is the kind of episode where you're going to want to get a notebook and a pen, and then you're going to want to make sure you run over and follow annual on Instagram because honestly her content is really, really great. She always delivers incredible tips. And you know what, and I've said this step before, what she does is she answers the questions that we'll have yet we're too afraid to ask or that no one else is answering. Like she takes those things. The really simple things that we're like, really, we should understand this, right? We sh we like all looking around going, do we not know how to do this? And she tells us how to do those. So if there was ever an outlaw and you know, is one, so today you get to listen to that conversation. So as I said, grab a notebook, grab a pen, put your earbuds in and tune in at episode 30.

Melanie Knights (00:04:30):

Yeah.

Melanie Knights (00:04:37):

And you're welcome to entrepreneurial Outlaws. I'm really excited to have this conversation with you today. I'm so glad you're here. I'm

Anyo Green (00:04:45):

So glad to be here. This is like super cool.

Melanie Knights (00:04:48):

Can you take just a moment to, for anyone listening, who doesn't already follow you to introduce yourself, let everybody know what you do, and then we'll get into some deeper conversations. Okay.

Anyo Green (00:04:59):

Of course. So I am an yo I own Northern B marketing and Northern B marketing kind of was born out of a desire to level the playing field in terms of how small businesses and medium sized businesses market themselves. I had my background in corporate marketing and it's just, I noticed that it's just not fair, right? Like you have to have a lot of money to be seen in the marketing world. And that's just not something that a lot of small businesses do. And as a result of that, I was really interested in how businesses can leverage organic growth and organic audience building and see real results on social media and in their digital marketing. And so that's what I do at Northern bean marketing. I help predominantly women. I'm definitely holding for women of color who owned businesses, but I help them to get the most out of their marketing and build their audience organically and ethically by showing up consistently and being authentic.

Speaker 4 (00:06:12):

I love that. Yes. And I'm sure we'll cover this as we go through the episode that I feel like you on my, you are my go-to Instagram expert and probably every other marketing thing that comes up in my own business. So yeah, I, your wealth of knowledge always astounds me in the sense that not because I don't expect it just because you know, so many different things and are able to bring those collectively to small businesses. And I think that's really, it's just wonderful because as you say, the narrative is like it's paid to play. And for most of us, that's not possibility.

Anyo Green (00:06:56):

Exactly. Especially when you realize, like, when I say it's paid to play like these big businesses, aren't just, you know, chucking a hundred quid at, you know, at Facebook ads. I mean, they're, they're spending six figures a month on their Facebook ads. And I mean, you know, there are so many small businesses who are trying to make six figures, so they definitely don't have that to spend monthly on ads. So it's definitely not a level playing field.

Speaker 4 (00:07:26):

Yeah. Yeah. That's definitely one of those areas of online business that has, I've seen really weaponized. And then there's narrative that is it's, it's lacks complete context, which is the idea of how to build a passive funnel or passive income. And probably not even passive, but this kind of funnel building stuff, which has a place. But so often the piece that's left out is like, Oh, but you need to run ads and you need to have an ad budget and you need to do this. It's like those you don't know until you're in there that like, and I've, I've been in courses and memberships where that has been the case, you know, the, on the, on the front facing value packed webinar, the promises are really great. When you get in, you realize that you can do all of this work, but if you don't see the same results as the person who's teaching, then you're not going to have the investment upfront to be able to invest into, into an ad spend. So I love the fact that you do it organically and ethically. I think that's wonderful. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:08:35):

So we're going to cover a few different things in today's conversation. I know that, but one of the things we do want to talk about fast to get into it is to talk about Instagram. And I've said this so many times on the show that I feel like Instagram is an empath and introverts like front of me, it is the platform that I feel like we love to because the narrative is that we need to be on all the times and we all the time we must show up and there's all these rules. So I'm really curious from your point of view, what are your thoughts around this narrative as a marketer and as a consumer?

Anyo Green (00:09:10):

So I think, I think looking back there was a time in our lives as consumers where we all kind of wanted that instant response, right. There was a time I would probably say around 2014, 2015, where if you had an issue with a company or a product, you went to Twitter and you tweeted about it and you expected a response within the hour. And that level of customer service, that level of demand, you know, started to present itself in any form of communication with the business, right. We expected that almost instantaneous response on social media. And that was a reflection of how people were using social media. At that time. It was almost this giant instant messaging service. And I think that that started to kind of show up and places like Facebook and Instagram, DMS, people wanted to send something and they wanted an immediate response to their problem.

Anyo Green (00:10:24):

When we kind of started to shift away from that, I think it, a lot of it happened as a result of lockdown and the pandemic, because we had so much time to sit with things. And that really slowed us down and not like in a negative way, but it slowed everything down. And we were able to save her life and being were able to save her things. And the pandemic has changed marketing and so many phenomenal ways. But I think one of the ways that it's changed it is in how people kind of interact with brands and how they how they're responded to by brands. I think it's now it's a little bit more, we're a little bit more tolerant of things taking a bit longer, and there's not so much pressure to automatically have a response for things to automatically, you know, be on all the time.

Anyo Green (00:11:23):

But I still feel like across the platform that isn't always conveyed, right. We still see, I think it was just last week. Some I saw this reel on Instagram. Somebody was saying that Instagram has said that we need to post, you know, on the grid like five times a week in stories, every single day, we need to post three reels. We need to go live twice a week. All of this like really hyped up stuff that people are just coming up with and it leads to burnout. Right. But not only does it lead to burnout, but it's not really rooted in any kind of practical foundation, because the way that content is consumed on Instagram has changed dramatically as well.

Speaker 4 (00:12:15):

One of the things you said that that was really interesting is around the immediate response, right? Because I don't really use Facebook that often. I've never really used Twitter and I don't use Facebook very often now, but one of the things I have noticed is the difference in way we will engage in the way we'll engage within these different platforms, the way we will approach these different platforms and how we will look at the response we might get from someone, I feel like Facebook feels very triggering. It feels like a platform where people from my point of view are willing to get into arguments like this. And I know that happens across platforms, but as consumers or as content creators. I also want to how that feeds into how we then behave on these platforms, because the same time, one of the things that I see happening a lot is the expectation that we put on ourselves as content creators.

Speaker 4 (00:13:23):

And it's, it feels like it has come from that living in a world where everything is instantaneous coming from a world where we expect a delivery the next day. And, you know, we found that as you said, like during the pandemic, those things didn't happen. Those things we ha we had to shift the way we lived our lives. And I see a lot more people, a lot more content creators, small business owners, entrepreneurs, really looking at their own boundaries because I feel like social media, it kind of feeds this narrative that we have to be available 24 seven. Like if you're going to have a business online and you're going to be on social media, well, then you have to be in your DMS and you have to be in your emails and you have to respond. And it has kind of bread that within the small business as well, and the expectation being so great that we don't allow people to actually be human beings as well.

Anyo Green (00:14:18):

Yes, I agree with that entirely. Social media has definitely bred this expectation that, you know, you do have to be on the money all the time and things, as simple as, you know, the fact that the way a Twitter feed is updated, you know, like you can literally open up Twitter on your phone or on a desktop, and you will see the tweets, you know, rolling in that kind of reinforces that it creates the sense of, you know, FOMO in terms of not only the content that you're creating, but the content that you see and that you don't see, you're constantly wondering what if I missed, you know, what, what I, someone said that I've not been aware of. And we know from a basic biological point of view, that that's just a dopamine hit, right? Like it's tapping into those chemicals in our brain that makes us want to know about this stuff and makes us want to be hungry for it.

Anyo Green (00:15:19):

But I think, you know, while there are some platforms that kind of feed into that, there are platforms that don't really feed into that. And I think Instagram, you know, it gets a bad reputation a lot because it is such a visual platform. And we know that they've been in, you know, under the spotlight because of some of the content that's triggering, you know, or some of the content that can perpetuate, you know, body issues and things like that, especially in younger users. But one of the things that I would say to Instagram's strength is they looked at that, right? And they looked at the areas where people probably weren't using the platform the way it was intended and they, they addressed it. And one of the things that they've done is they've stopped serving content to users chronologically. It used to be that when you scrolled on your homepage, you would see posts in the order that they were, you know, submitted to the platform, right.

Anyo Green (00:16:25):

In terms of your, who you followed. Now, that's not the case. Now the algorithm has come in and there, it works really hard to show you content based on what you're interested in and not what was just put up there. So that kind of FOMO aspect has been curtailed somewhat, but as a whole, you're completely right. Like that is social media, right? It's about making sure that you're on all the time and that you are, you know, constantly aware of what's happening. But I would like, I like to tell people all the time that you don't have to subscribe to that, right? Like social media is about being social and you wouldn't talk to your best friend, 24 hours a day, all day, every day, you compartmentalize that in your life. So you should compartmentalize social media and your business as well.

Speaker 4 (00:17:14):

Well, that was golden. I mean, the idea of compartments a lot. Yeah. Like I'm like write that down. That's going to be a quote. Yeah. And, and I think that's one of the things that is so hard for us though, is to compartmentalize, you know, the, if Instagram or any social media platform can be part of a business and it can work for a business and without business. And we can even use it personally and professionally, but it's not the entire identity of what we do. And it's, I mean, you know, I, I know that I have pretty poor boundaries with Instagram. Still I was some days where I'm just no on, and on those days, I think yesterday was one of those days and I'm like, Oh, I haven't really been on Instagram today. That's that's okay. And I don't feel like I've missed out on anything dramatic and it feels fine. And I think it's, it's just remembering the Instagram is just old social platforms. So just like one part of our business and not letting it create this narrative that we have to be on all the time.

Anyo Green (00:18:23):

Yeah. And a lot of it as well, I would say is, you know, and making sure that the accounts that you follow aren't perpetuating that narrative. One of the, I would say best things that has come out of, you know, lockdown in the pandemic is that the number of Insta models and Instagram influencers who made their money purely by jet setting around the world and showing people, you know, how they lived in these fabulous locations that has dramatically dropped as we've all been forced, you know, to you be home and to reduce our travel. And as a result, the tone of the platform has changed. It's a lot less, you know, look at what I have and look at, you know, this fabulous, fabulous lifestyle that I've been able to get people to, you know, basically create for me. And now it's more about authenticity and relate-ability, and I think that has been one of the most important and one of the most refreshing pivots that we've seen on the platform.

Speaker 4 (00:19:25):

Yeah. I think, I think it's, this is one of those silver linings that has come out of that because I've certainly seen my firm from the very beginning, from a year ago when lockdown started and the way people consumed content was different. What people were looking for was different. Also, we didn't know what we wanted or needed because we'd never navigated this before. But it was very interesting to watch, to look at everything and to see at least people who, you know, maybe in their businesses, how they were navigating their content, how they were navigating the way they were going to show up and in lot shifted. And it was really, really interesting. And I think, I don't know whether you agree with this. I feel like one of the things I certainly saw over the last 12 months is that the good folks seemed to be winning.

Speaker 4 (00:20:30):

If not now in the running, it was, it was like using ethical marketing, having these open conversations about what is ethical, what isn't bro marketing, and just being very, like transparent about what frustrates and off in the online space that became a conversation that I didn't see a whole lot of pre lockdown pre COVID. I know that was a conversation I started having in my own feed. And I have seen more and more people over the last 12 months because of so many of these quote safe spaces that have not been safe for people. So much of that has shifted and people are coming out and saying, yeah, I've had this experience too, in the online space. Or I found that, you know, marketing is, is feeding this narrative and I'm not happy with it. I feel like everything is unethical. I feel like I only know what I know, which is a huge thing. So if we can focus on ethical marketing for a little bit, and I'm just curious to know, why is this so important for small businesses and where do you see small or big businesses going wrong when it comes to the ethical nature of their marketing?

Anyo Green (00:21:48):

That like we could, we could talk for days on this ethical marketing. So let's, let's back up a little bit. You are entirely correct in saying that after lockdown and after COVID, well, we're still living in lockdown here in the UK. But after, I guess the first hunk of lockdown, we really started to see more people be aware of ethical marketing and be attuned to it. And I think a lot of that, like I said, came with this incredible atmosphere that we were all in. Like we had nothing to do, but sink and we, we, like, we just spent so much time thinking about things. And there was a couple of stats that came out about how, you know, the way people used email marketing during, you know, 2019 and their beginning of lockdown, how that changed and how we unsubscribed from a lot of newsletters and things that weren't really serving a purpose to us and how we unfollowed on social media.

Anyo Green (00:23:05):

And we became really aware of all of the content that we are constantly bombarded with because we had no other distraction from it. And I think as we were becoming aware of just the sheer amount of content, we became really cognizant to how that content is presented to us and those, you know, bro marketing tactics that make you feel not so great. And how many times we were affronted with that and were accosted with that. And how many times we make purchases, not because we're really interested in a product or a service, but because we've been guilted into doing it or shamed into doing it. And so I think that, you know, that awareness within ourselves has led a lot of content creators and marketers to look at how they're marketing and to make sure they're not creating those same kind of anxieties in their own audience. Right. And so much of traditional marketing. I always like whenever I think of marketing, I always think of the show mad men. And it's such a brilliant show from the point of view of it really shows you how advertising was built, right. And how it was used as a manipulation tool. And so many of the marketing tactics and strategies that we use in 2021 still have their roots and the very

Speaker 4 (00:24:43):

Shady practices

Anyo Green (00:24:45):

That you know, are played out in mad men. And so much of it is about not necessarily about serving the customer, but it's about getting your product purchased at any cost. So ethical marketing then for a small business owner becomes about heart, right? And it can feel like a long list of things you shouldn't do. And I, I hate that and I don't think that's the best way of looking at it. I think you should look at ethical marketing from a business point of view from your heart and your intention and asking people, you know, asking yourself, okay, am I going to make this product, you know $27 because I've been told by other marketers that there is a, you know, a psychological reason why we end products, we end prices for products and sevens. So I'm going to make this $27, even though I know it's really effectively $30 and I'm not going to use, you know, a zero because the research tells me that people will think that it's actually $30 and they won't buy it. But if it, if it's $27, then they'll think psychologically that it's closer to 25 and so they'll buy it. So things like that, you know, so many decisions that we make in marketing are based on this,

Speaker 4 (00:26:14):

You know, psychological research,

Anyo Green (00:26:16):

Not for the benefit of the customer or the consumer, but for the benefit of the company and how they could increase their bottom line and make more money. And so from a small business point of view, you have to be aware of why you're making the decisions you're making and how you market your product.

Speaker 4 (00:26:35):

Yeah. I, I love that. I love the idea that, like you said, from hots, because I think what is really interesting about that is that you were saying, there's, there are people who will be like, you can't do this, you can do that. I think the thing is there are so many areas of not just marketing a business, the fun three of us, we do actually mean, well, you know, when not doing it or saying it in, in a way where it is to harm anyone or it's a lie or a manipulation. And I thought about that just recently in relation to, you know, some of the phrases that have been used so often and the marketer or the creator or the business owner, or the coach, or whoever hasn't really met up, you know, or they've put it on their sales page. And then time and time again, again, people, you know, people who actually go into that program of course, or whatever their experience is not representative of what's in the sales page or the marketing.

Speaker 4 (00:27:41):

And what then typically happens is we become really distrustful. We don't, we don't trust, not just that person, but we don't trust anyone who might use that, that phrase or that word, because we're like, well, that, that phrase doesn't really, nobody really cares. And you know, some of those phrases have been things like safe space, or like even like holistic and intuition. Like these words have been twisted and manipulated by, by brands and by businesses and individuals. That again, if you, even if you're trying to run your business from a place of hot, like you might say, it's a safe space because you genuinely believe that it's a safe space and maybe you are doing the things that need to be done to create that space. But at the same time, we have to look at it from the point of view of, okay, we have to, I know you and I have talked about know, like, and trust before.

Speaker 4 (00:28:36):

And, but it's kind of shifting that from this. Like, you can't just talk about yourself and build that likability now. Like, I mean, you can, and people still will, but for most of us, especially those who want to be running businesses ethically. And without that bro marketing, it really is a case of, as you said, coming from high and being able to not just say that you're going to do something, but actually doing it and actually showing on a regular basis how you're doing that and making those commitments within your business. So one of the things that I've seen you talk about and I've seen, I've even bred to some of your articles around is unconscious bias specifically in business and in marketing. And I'm really interested in hearing more about this because this isn't something we've talked about on the show before, and I would love to, I would love for you to share it out with the listeners more about what unconscious bias is and how this

Melanie Knights (00:29:42):

Shows itself in online business. And more specifically with in online marketing.

Anyo Green (00:29:48):

Okay. So unconscious bias, it encompasses so much, right? So basically what it is, you may have also heard it referred to as implicit bias and what these are is it's the kind of the underlying attitude that we all have. So like the underlying attitude or, or stereotype that we unconsciously attribute to something else, right? Whether that is a person or a group of people, but the key with unconscious bias is that it's affects how we engage with that person or group. So on the whole, it can be positive it's most often seen negatively. So unconscious bias looks like a lot of different things. So it's the fact that most things that are designed tend to be designed with people who are right-handed in mind, because there tends to be more right-handed individuals in the world than left-handed individuals. Another example of it would be, you know, kind of the stereotypes that you make about someone, you know, assuming that because that certain activity can only be enjoyed by people of a certain color, so, or a certain ethnicity.

Anyo Green (00:31:19):

So one of the ones that I like to point out all the time is, you know, take a look at things, you know, on Instagram you'll have hashtags, like hashtag black girls can knit too, or hashtag, you know, black girls hike to so things like knitting, hiking, those kinds of activities that anybody can enjoy, no matter your ethnicity, no matter your race, no matter your gender, your size, any of that, we still, you know, unconsciously assume that if we hear that someone is knitting, they're probably a white person, or they're probably a white woman, most often an older white woman, right? So we have all of these unconscious biases that crop up. I was in the car with my kids driving into school this week. And there's a, there's a neighborhood black cat, and we see it every morning and it always triggers conversation.

Anyo Green (00:32:12):

My son always says, Oh, bad luck. And my daughter always says, it's just a gap. And it's so funny because my son is older than my daughter. So it's, it's an interesting little dynamic to, to kind of hear, but this time my son took the conversation a little bit, you know, he took it in different direction and he said, Oh, that black cat probably belongs to a witch. And I was just like, Whoa. And you know, so had the conversation him that, you know, mommy knows quite a lot of witches. I have clients who are practical, which is, and I don't think either of them have a black cat, you know, I don't think any of them have a black cat and I don't think, you know, so just explaining to him how things we don't even become aware of things that we assume assumptions that we make about a person or a thing.

Anyo Green (00:33:02):

And that's a good example of unconscious bias. Another one that I think is, is like really pertinent to you. This audience is the term female entrepreneur, right? Like we never hear male entrepreneur. We never hear men in business. We never hear you know, white women in business for it. So all of these things that while of these ways that we kind of stake our claim, right. We are women in business. Why do we have, why do we feel the need to specify the fact that we are women? Well it's because when you think of business, you think of men we've been trained to think of men. When you think of people who are business owners, you've been trained to think of, you know, not someone with melanin, right? So we stake the claim that we are people of color who also own businesses. So those are just some of the examples of ways that unconscious bias, you know shows up in everyday life.

Melanie Knights (00:34:04):

Okay. I, I, I feel like I have a lot of questions and I was just thinking of all the different, different examples I could think of. I mean, so to, to reference or to come back to your point where you, you talking about Calvin and the black witch, black witch, black cat and the witch this was something that actually, coincidentally, my son was doing during homeschooling. They had a whole English product project on witches, and I got really excited about this. And then I ended up being very, very angry by the whole process because the whole process was the, what she's will like scary and ugly and this, and what was really frustrating for me was the, not only with the teachers build like feeding into this myth or this narrative, but also all of the schoolwork fed into this. And I'm, and I'm sitting there similar to you having this conversation.

Melanie Knights (00:35:05):

Like, but, but no, that's that's. And of course, because in his head, he's also thinking that, which is unreal and I'm like, well, you know, there are witches and that just led a whole other conversation as well. But it was, it was really, it was really interesting because I feel like that is just one example of, again, like, as you were, we were also talking about children, like how it's, it's fed to them at such a young age and it's, and, and unconscious bias is, is, is something that is around us all the time. And, you know, it was interesting to come from there is that when I used to work in health and fitness, that was one of the doctors, or I should say, yeah, doctor, he was a coach and a doctor. And did a lot of biochemistry research into metabolism and health and fitness.

Melanie Knights (00:36:01):

And one of the things that he would often talk about with us as, you know, other coaches, people who were going to be training people and working with clients is he would often talk about these myths that are more conscious bias, where it's like, we've looking, you know, if you want to say that for example, in keeping within the health and fitness realm, that breakfast is the most important meal of the day. Well, you're going to look for those answers. If you believe that keto is the best diet, you're going to look for the things that kind of back up, what you're looking for. And so, as you were talking about unconscious bias, I had one of the questions that came up from my mind was like, how does the idea, the idea, but the, the concept of defining your niche, niching down, being really specific about who you talk to, does this not feed into unconscious bias because to come back to your female entrepreneur comment like mum, boss, right? Mom, entrepreneur, moms in business, like again, all these different ways in which, you know, specifically women, and then more so women of color are having to define their specific place in business. I just want to, how much of the marketing tools or tactics that we use are also feeding into that? 

Anyo Green (00:37:28):

That's such a, that's such a good question. And it's such an interesting point to raise. So let's go back to that definition of what unconscious biases. So the key here is that these unconscious biases are affecting, are influencing how we understand or how we engage, you know, with a person or with a group. So we obviously have to niche down, right? We have to be specific in our marketing because otherwise we're not marketing. We're just shouting out an out of crowd and hoping, you know, someone lifts their hand and says, Oh yeah, I'm interested in that. And that's not an effective use of our time. So we do have to niche down. We do have to be specific about who we're going after now. There's a very fine line between being specific about who we're going after on a general term and filling in one of those really pointless customer avatars, where you sit down and you create a fake person and you give them an age and you give them an arbitrary job title.

Anyo Green (00:38:33):

And you write down that they like to eat spaghetti, you know, wearing pink socks on Thursday, like that kind of detail, doesn't add anything to a marketing strategy, the kind of detail that we need when Munish down is a little bit more broad, but specific, right? So we want to know, you know, what kind of problems do these people have? And then our marketing is our it's showing how we've solved that problem for them. So where the difference is for me is in what you do with that information. So for instance, if let's say I was going to start a company making yoga pants, right. And I know that yoga is often seen within the black community as something that white women do. So therefore in my marketing, I only use pictures of white women. I don't use pictures of anyone of color. I ignore the fact that yoga, you know, did not originate for white women or by white women, that it has its own deep, rich history and culture.

Anyo Green (00:39:53):

And I give, I kind of get tunnel vision in terms of how I market this product, who I market it to. That would be an example of negative unconscious bias, right. A positive example would be to say, okay, I know that there's a community or multiple communities that view yoga as something that's not for them instead. I disagree with that. So I'm going to do everything I can and my marketing to be diverse. I'm going to create content that calls out to those people who are within those communities, where it's not really seen as the thing to do. I'm going to create content that reaches them. That gives them something to say, Oh yeah, that's me about right. That gives them a safe space. So it all goes back to the intention and what you're trying to achieve, because we can't get away from unconscious bias. It's, it's everywhere. It's in everything. It's, it just exists. So instead of trying to fight against it, we need to look at how we can use it to the best of its benefit within our marketing.

Speaker 4 (00:41:03):

Yeah. And I, and I'm wondering how often I'm wondering how often brands. I mean, I was thinking of one brand in particular, she was saying that, and I wonder how often brands will identify. And I don't know whether they're like conscious enough to say, Hey, here's our unconscious bias as a brand, or whether they're just like, Oh, we need to do something here. But where the brands they seem to, what am I trying to say though, sometimes like find one particular area where they're being biased within their marketing, or they're being biased within that, that collections or their clothing or whatever it might be. I mean, I'm thinking of your grocery, we're saying, and it's like, they, then they then unpack that area. Right. And they'll, they'll do something about that. But then there's like all these other things that you're not seeing happening.

Speaker 4 (00:42:02):

And if can this still, this still is, you were saying in relation to yoga, there's still groups of people who can do yoga, but don't feel welcome in that, in that world. Right. And I think, I think it's just, it's, it's really, I think it's really interesting to have this conversation. And then as to think, kind of look at it as a business owner and as someone who is marketing and as someone who's creating content and responsible, whether it's for their, their own business and maybe for others, but then also looking at it as a consumer and where our own, you know, where are we buying or what are we seeing when we're actually seeing the unconscious bias come up or that bias come up within that brand? And then how are we addressing it both as content creators and as consumers.

Anyo Green (00:42:55):

Yeah. I mean, and that is the crux of it, right? So the clearest example that comes to my mind is the latest wave of, you know, black lives matter. And after George Floyd, we all know that the black lives matter movement again took off and it had, it had like wings and it was everywhere, right. There were marches around the world. There were merchants in London, there were marches in Paris or marches in various, you know, U S cities. And for the first time it became a truly global issue. And I mean, there are so many examples of, you know, companies taking to Twitter, just emboldened with this zest for making sure that people knew that black lives matter and making sure that people knew where they stood. I mean, I remember there was that whole Twitter conversation between two well-known T brands in the UK and a user, a consumer, you know, tweeted something along the lines of, you know, being disgusted that they used.

Anyo Green (00:44:06):

I think it was a black person in their marketing. And so the company responded and basically said, you know, if you don't like the fact that we're showing diversity, then maybe you should try, you know, another brand of tea. And I think they tagged like one of their competitors and the competitor came in and was like, don't send them to us because we're, we're diverse as well. And it was like, it was a comical moment, but it was also like a really nice moment to able to see these big stalwart companies, you know, taking a stand for the first time ever. Right. on such a global scale. But then as things tend to do, they die down, right? Like we'd had March after March, after March, people were, you know, making a stand. There were t-shirts, there were podcasts, there were hashtags, there was, you know, people putting up the black picture, the black square on Instagram.

Anyo Green (00:44:58):

There were all of these things for a finite period of time. And then it got quiet because we segwayed into pulling out of lockdown a little bit, or we got busy with Christmas or whatever. So from that point of view, two things, yes, we need to be aware of the other ways, you know, as a business, the other ways in which we are feeding into unconscious bias, for sure. We definitely need to address that beyond that though. We need to make sure that we're not just addressing these issues to tick off the box and then to move on, they need to be lifestyle changes, right? They need to be culture changes. We need to make sure that in our business, if we are a large enough business to have a person who, you know, can devote their time to looking after the diversity and equality and inclusion and belonging, you know, within that culture, like just like we have an HR person, just like we have a finance person, just like we have, you know, fire marshals and all of that.

Anyo Green (00:46:14):

We need to have someone whose job is to make sure that all of the people who are underrepresented feel like they have a voice at that place of work from a small business point of view, it comes down to us. Right. We need to be checking in regularly. We need to look at our marketing and say, okay, have I used a diversity in my marketing, not as a box ticking exercise, but to make sure that if you have a product that can be used by everyone, that everyone can see themselves in your marketing, if not, what's the point of it. And so it's a, it's an ongoing thing. Like we can't just say, well, I put up a black square, you know, last summer. So I've done my bit like black lives matter. No, like the pro the point is when you put up that black square, I was a black person. When you were aware of me, I was a black person. When you're no longer aware of me, I'm still the black person. You know what I mean? So there needs to be this kind of commitment and this longevity to our allyship and to our, you know, inclusion and diversity and belonging that we create. Yeah.

Melanie Knights (00:47:30):

Yeah. And I, and I really feel like as, as business owners, like, there is so much to do, but there's also a case of like being okay with it up. Because honestly, like, that was my biggest fear was like, I'm going to do it wrong. Well, of course I'm going to do it wrong, but then I have to be willing to go, I've done it wrong, or I've done this wrong. Or I've, I've, I've made a mistake or I've not looked at this area of my own bias or my own blind spot. And, you know, those are the kinds of, really the conversations that we, that we have to have with ourselves first. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's not, it's not a public conversation. It's not, and I've talked about this before on here. It's like any of that kind of work that we do, whether it's around racism or, you know, standing out for any other community, we have to have that conversation internally with ourselves fast before we can make commitments publicly because those public commitments are gonna fall down. If we're not living leading, breathing in that way, in our own homes, in our own businesses, if we're not having those conversations with the people who are actually in our lives, there's no point in having a conversation with 2000 people on Instagram who don't know you,

Anyo Green (00:48:56):

That's, that's so true. And like, I had my own kind of, you know, apifany around this subject. A couple months ago I was operating from a point of, I was so impressed and I was so happy to see so many businesses put up, you know, racism and inclusion policies. And I was just like really excited by it. And I was carrying on like, thinking, I don't need to do that because, you know, I'm a black person, of course, I'm going to be accepting of other black people, but that's not the case. Right. Like, and I think this is something that keeps getting lost as a black person. You know, I have experienced reverse racism. I know that there's this big contingent about, Oh, you can't be racist if you are a minority. And all of that, like that's a conversation for like another day, but I will just say like, yes, you can.

Anyo Green (00:49:56):

And it doesn't feel great whether it comes from a white person or from a black person. I mean, I, I know people, black people who don't think they're black, right. They think they're white. They have a white mentality. They conduct themselves as if they were white, so you can be racist and still be of color. But so in realizing that in my own business, it made me aware of the importance of me stating you, what my intentions were and what my beliefs were around racism and inclusion and putting that policy on my own website and putting things, you know, in my business journal, in my calendar, like check, check points and checking in and making sure that I am practicing what I'm preaching and that I'm safe. And not only am I saving space for people of color, but I'm doing things to help them, you know, and to further, you know, their experience and to market toward them and to support them and not just sitting up, you know, and looking at all the other people who are making allowances for us and not being willing to do, you know, my, my part in that either.

Melanie Knights (00:51:14):

Yeah. This was such a good conversation. And as you said, I feel like, I feel like we could talk about this and so many for so long and in so many other ways because this just, I feel like this is a conversation we should revisit in, I don't know, three months, six months time, because I think there's going to be so many more conversations like this, and there is so much to cover. But I think I really appreciate you talking very openly and honestly about this, because I think that as we have not talked about unconscious bias and I had an idea of what it looked like, and I had read your articles, but I was really interested to know, you know, where is this? Where is this showing? Because I think as we were saying, if we can identify it for ourselves and then have those conversations with ourselves, we can then make those commitments internally within our organization.

Melanie Knights (00:52:21):

Even if it's only us by ourselves, you know, it's, it's still running a business, right? This is not a hobby. This is a business. And if you're running a business, you're responsible for what you put up on Instagram and social media. And as, and also, you know, if you whether you have a podcast or you're, you know, doing collaborations, like you have a responsibility to your audience who you bring in and doing that research, and you have to be willing to get uncomfortable and have those conversations. And, and I'm really glad that we were able to, you know, that you were able to come on today so we could talk about this and I really appreciate it.

Anyo Green (00:53:01):

Oh, I feel like I thank you for having this conversation. Right. And for being being open to it and wanting to learn more about it, because I think what people, what I hope people will take away from it is unconscious bias. Doesn't just affect people who are visibly different, right. And something that we all carry around and that we're all affected by, you know, unconscious biases about who we are, you know, where we shop, what we eat, who we follow on social media, you know, what words we use. Those are all things that people can assign unconscious bias to. So the more that we become aware of it, the more we realize, hopefully all the different ways, it kind of creeps in and then we can do something about it.

Speaker 5 (00:53:51):

Yeah.

Melanie Knights (00:53:54):

I feel like we're going to take a really weird, serious tangent right now as we're coming to the end of our conversation. So I was very inspired by listening to Bernay Brown just recently. I heard that she, I, I was like, she does these quick fire rounds with her guests. And I was like, Ooh, that's fun. So what can I do on Instagram and moccasin quickfire round? Because I think I said this at the beginning, you on my Instagram and marketing, like go to expo. So many times I'll see you post something on Instagram and you already know this because, you know, you're part of the conversation I'm like telling me what, what does this mean? How do I do this? So I thought we would do a quick fire, social media around, love it. So that we can, we can hear what you really think. I feel like I could do that thing where,

Anyo Green (00:54:41):

You know, like I stretch and I like crack

Melanie Knights (00:54:43):

My knuckle and I rub my hands together and I get rid of, yeah, it's going to be, it's going to be really intense. Okay. So favorite social media platform? Ooh, Pinterest. Okay. Okay. Okay. Hang on. I want to ask a question then. Why?

Anyo Green (00:55:00):

Oh, because I am such an aspirational person that there's all, like, there's a million things that I want to do with my life. And Pinterest makes it really easy for me to keep track of that in a visual way. Not that I ever like go in and fulfill the stuff. That's

Melanie Knights (00:55:19):

My boards. It's nice to know that I've got it there. Now when I have the time I can build this, Pinterest is basically

Anyo Green (00:55:30):

My blueprint for retirement. So

Melanie Knights (00:55:32):

Once I retire, like all of those boards are going to

Anyo Green (00:55:35):

Come into fruition. I hope Pinterest is around

Melanie Knights (00:55:38):

It, but like I say, it's a long way off. Okay. Okay. Favorite marketing tech tool.

Speaker 5 (00:55:49):

Ooh. 

Anyo Green (00:55:54):

Probably content schedulers because they allow me to kind of bank up content when I'm feeling inspired or really annoyed by something. And I like want to write, write, write about it. I can just go into like, I'm a big fan of creator studio and I'll just go into creator studio and I've created these kind of dummy dummy images, kind of like the one that I sent you, that

Melanie Knights (00:56:24):

One where we needed, I should share this honestly. So we'll share this story. Okay. So, and you and I had had a conversation about the fact that I was going to create a graphic for one of our social media posts. And she was like, okay, I'll put a dummy image. And I was like, yeah, okay. There's a blank square in, in, in our scheduling tool. I'm like, you could just put that in. I go in, and there is this, like, it looked like a cat had drawn needs a graphic designer. I'm going to share this on Instagram to shame you into this needs a graphic designer ASAP. And I was like, can you imagine if that had gone out to my feet, I didn't still sit there. And I'm just like, Oh God, I need to make sure I never accidentally posts. So like, that's what I do.

Anyo Green (00:57:08):

And my scheduler, I've got like tons of those, like graphics that just make me laugh. And that reminds me, you know, that I need to come up with a great graphic for it, but the caption is already written. Right. And then I can either go away when I feel like playing in Canva or PicMonkey and I can go away and create a really nice graphic and then I can schedule the post. So yeah, that's schedulers are a godsend.

Melanie Knights (00:57:35):

Yeah. Okay. I love my scheduling tool as well. Okay. Marketing myths that greats you'll ask the most. Oh, just one. Yeah. You don't have to pick one. Oh,

Anyo Green (00:57:52):

The idea that you have to post every single day in order to build an audience.

Melanie Knights (00:58:06):

Cool. Permission slip right there for one. Okay. What is a company in your opinion? What is a complete waste of time, energy or money in online business?

Anyo Green (00:58:20):

Oh, I'm going to step on some toes and I know I'm going to get some flack from his done for you templates and swipe files.

Melanie Knights (00:58:31):

Oh, I know. That's a conversation for next time as well. Okay. Hang on. No, you need to like, yeah. So I kind of like, not that I haven't invested in those in the years, but I kind of agree. So let's go, let's have this conversation now. Okay.

Anyo Green (00:58:45):

So here's the thing I can keep it brief. Okay. Those done for you. Swipe files are really great because they're convenient, right? And you don't have to think, and you don't have to put energy in it, but is that really how you want to like market your business by not thinking and not putting energy in it? And plus, plus from the practical point of view, I can automatically think of like for marketing influencers who build up all of these volts and content, bike banks, where you can go in and you can have like 27 stories, like ideas and 28 captions written for you in 365 Instagram posts already done. And here's the thing like one those influencers and, and marketing quote, unquote experts are spending about hundreds and thousands of dollars on ads getting those things seen. Right? So they're spending, let's say they spend a thousand dollars on ads a month getting them seen.

Anyo Green (00:59:59):

And then the price point is so low. So the price point is like $27. What it normally is, let's be honest. So $27, but they'll say that it has a value of like $697. But you can get it today just for 27. Can you, can you believe it? So people like buy into that and they're like, Ooh, I want that for $27. Of course. So one of two things happen, what happens to the most is people pay the $27. It lands in their inbox and then like the dog needs letting out, or the kids aren't picking up from school or that email needs sending and they never go back to it and they never opened it, but that person still has the $27. That's one area, the other area. And the worst area is when they actually open it. And they copy and paste all of those captions into their Instagram. Everyone else is doing the same thing. So if your audience is, you know, following more than one person on Instagram and let's just go ahead and admit that they probably are, if they're seeing that same caption, you know, in all of these other places, it's not going to do anything to them, but feel like white noise, right. They're going to ignore it. It's not going to be inspiring. It's not likely to convert because it wasn't written with you in mind. You're literally just copying and pasting.

Melanie Knights (01:01:24):

Yeah. I really wish I could remember which episode this was that I talked about something similar, but I shared a few episodes ago. We will find out I'll put it in the show notes so you can listen to it, but not you personally, but the listeners. But we talked about this concept of these, these banks of prom, and you could talk about your fibers. You can take a picture of you and untamed and you can stick it on Instagram. But like, I don't really care. Like, I'm not like everyone wants you to read that book and that's fine. But it's like, just because it's written by someone who is seen to be, you know, I don't know where a halo or whatever in, in this world, you know, at the end of the day, I don't care unless you're gonna tell me why. Like, why should I read this book? Why does this book change my life? And you know, or any book, you know, for that matter. And I see that a lot. I mean, so I use this as an example, I think in the episode where I had most recently, I think it was probably a year, or maybe you're in a big or downloaded one for $27, funnily enough, that I could upgrade. That was like a, that was a thing. Right.

Anyo Green (01:02:47):

I bet there were like seven upgrades,

Melanie Knights (01:02:50):

Right? Yeah. But anyway, this was $27 and it was supposed to, it was 52 prompts of E it was if you're teaching emails, like email subjects and you and I have talked about this before and my marketing is not my favorite thing. And so I was like, cool. Right, okay. I trust this person. I'd watch his passing before I'm going to download this thing and it got it. And I was like, what is this? I was like, this, this is not, this is not going to help me because it's not that I need a prompt. I need to get out of my head and figure out my way of writing my content and telling my story, not, you know? And so now I write my emails in real time, pretty much. It's pretty, the only thing I do in real time in my business, but I enjoy it and I don't have to follow a prompt to do it. And here's the thing

Anyo Green (01:03:41):

Like when you know your audience, you don't need to be prompted, right? When you know your audience, the way, you know, your best friend and you know what they're struggling with and you know, how you solve that problem for them, you don't need a prompt. A prompt is a crutch and a prompt as a crutch for people who don't know who their audience is, or they don't know what value they're providing. You get clear on what value you're providing and to whom. And you can write all day long about any aspect of your business.

Melanie Knights (01:04:12):

Yup. Yup. Yeah. Cause your comp plan for organic conversation. Exactly. You don't know when they're going to come up. Okay. Right. Let's let's move on. Let's let's file this and next time we'll have this conversation as well. Okay. Reels or tick

Anyo Green (01:04:27):

Tock. Oh, reels for sure.

Melanie Knights (01:04:29):

Okay. Yes. Okay. Favorite business book. Hmm. So it's an old one,

Anyo Green (01:04:38):

But it's a good one. And it's not really, it's not just a business book. It's a marketing book. Is that okay? Okay. Yeah. It's so Gary Vaynerchuk or Gary V as he goes by, it's one of his best, it's called jab jab, jab, right hook. And it's all about the principle of marketing where you give, give, give, and then you ask for a spin. It's so good. The examples in it are dated because it's an old book. This is from like pre 2014. But the principle is like, it never goes out of style. So definitely recommend,

Melanie Knights (01:05:16):

Okay. So faster. I'm at my bookshop. Cause I'm like, I'm sure I have that book somewhere. And I don't know that I've ever read it, but I can't say it. Secondly, I'm really surprised. I was like, who is, who is this? Who, who, who is she going to say? I was really surprised. I don't think you've ever, I've never heard you talk about Garvey. Okay. Sometimes I'm like, you know what? The whole like eat caveat, the whole eat for two years. So you can eat caveat of the rest of your life kind of annoys me, but I'm like, he says some really clever things too. He does. He does. He does, you know, you don't get that far without, you know, doing some shots. Okay. Last question. What was the last investment you made in marketing?

Anyo Green (01:05:55):

Ooh, the last investment I made and this was a tough one and I think you and I had this conversation probably 20,000 times. It's taken me that long to just do it. But the last investment I made was expanding my team. And because I am your classic type a personality, right. Like I hold on, I don't hold on to stuff. I like clutch onto it for dear life. And I was getting to the point in my business where, you know, my business has really grown in the pandemic and I'm so thankful for that. And I'm so grateful for all of the amazing clients I have and all of the great, you know, marketing I'm able to do. But I, can't also, I'm a single mom of two kids. I can't show up for them and show up for my clients and show up in my inbox and show up like on schedulers. Like I can only do so much in a day. And instead of realizing that and being okay with that limitation, I was like, no, I can do it. I can do it. I'll just keep doing it. Like it's no

Melanie Knights (01:07:07):

Problem. That's literally what you said.

Anyo Green (01:07:11):

And I realized I ended up hiring a good friend of mine. Actually. I hired two people in the last like month, which sounds like, you know, I've got six figures. I don't, but it's, it's also about the priority. Right? I've been able to hire two people who have been fantastic, you know, looking after my inbox, helping me get content scheduled, helping me, you know with, with those two very big things that I don't like doing so that I can focus on the things that I do like to do. And that has been so valuable and such a good investment because I like the weight that was lifted off my shoulders when they were like, yes, I'll do this for you. I was just like in tears. I was like, thank you. Because I like, I hate email, like email is the bane of my existence. And knowing that when I go into my inbox now the, the emails magically land in the right folders. And it's all like ready for me to just open reply. It's just been the best thing ever.

Melanie Knights (01:08:19):

Yeah. You know, it's funny. I think I hadn't hired anybody in my business until last year. And one of the things I've certainly learned around is I'm okay. But I have to get to that breaking point where I'm like, I can't keep doing this. And the problem is it's like such a, you know, everyone else is probably going, why don't you just ask for help? And you're like, well, you know, you, you sometimes con see the solution, you see the problem. And I know this was something I had thought about, you know, when you and I were talking and your, you know, your role within my business kind of shifted because I desperately needed that support and help. And it was like, the moment you were like, so what does that look like? And I was like, I don't know. And then I was like, Oh, well, actually this is what I would really like.

Melanie Knights (01:09:10):

And you're like, sure, let's do that. Like the, the change has been like, it's not even been a month. I don't think, I think it's been a few weeks, but it's just so important to be able to, I think, so the one thing I thought about was like, you already have people around you, and this is like, even if you're not in a position to hire a team, you have solutions around you and you probably have what you need, but we have to stop focusing on. What's not working and what's not happening and be like, okay, this is what I want. What are the, what are the ways in which I could achieve this? Right. Because we have to, again, it's kind of a, like self-inquiry asking herself, how do I achieve? Like, how can I achieve this? Not like I'm never going to, but what are the possibilities? And who can I, who do I already know that can help me? Because I think the moment in my business, when I've switched, that I kind of looks at it from that lens. I'm like, Oh, well, hang on a minute. I could just offer this possum. Yeah. Or like, and you could just ask because they might say no, but at least, you know,

Anyo Green (01:10:22):

And then you can move on. What if they say yes,

Melanie Knights (01:10:26):

Exactly. Right. And that was, I think that was the thing with you. And I was like, she might say no, but she might say yes. She said, yes. So that looks fun. This was so much fun.

Anyo Green (01:10:38):

This was fun coming home. Oh, thank you for having me.

Melanie Knights (01:10:43):

You're welcome. So where can everybody find, you learn more about what you're doing, get all of your great tips.

Anyo Green (01:10:54):

So I hang out on Instagram from a marketing point of view I am at Northern B marketing. I'm also on a website, Northern BB marketing.co.uk. If you are a foodie and you like to surround with good food, good gluten free food. You can find me on Pinterest, literally just like search for an UNITA. M a N Y O N I T a. And I will come up and like, we can be Pinterest, like recipe pals, because like 99% of my Pinterest, it's just food.

Melanie Knights (01:11:37):

Yeah. And like, and here's the thing when you go and look at and use Pinterest and you'll be like, you took all these firms. Cause that was my first reaction. I was like, you took these. I was like, how is this a skill? I didn't know you had, but yeah. Okay. We will make sure that's all of your links linked in the show notes. Make sure you follow Andrew on Instagram guys, because I know so many people have, you know, conversations you're having at the moment, your content is, I'm thinking about today's post basically, but your content is so helpful and you answer things in a way where it's like people who I'm going to just say it. I think there's a lot of people who talk about some of the things you talk about. They don't know what the we're talking about.

Melanie Knights (01:12:26):

So they make it super complicated and you just, you know, you just make it really simple. And it's like, here it is like, I'm not going to hide it behind a $27 ebook. Like this is just, you know, this is not something that needs to be complicated, stop worrying about it. Like here's the answer. And I think that's really refreshing. Oh, thank you. Oh, okay. Well thank you so much. We will definitely have to have a part two of this conversation in, in, you know, in a while. But thank you for coming on and thank you for being here and I will speak to you soon. Yeah. Cheers. Thanks

Melanie Knights (01:13:06):

Buddy. See, what did I tell you? Did I know,

Melanie Knights (01:13:14):

I'll tell you that that was going to be a really, really great conversation, such an amazing episode. I am so grateful for, and you'd come on the show for us to have this conversation. And as I said, these are things that we feel like we already should know, and they're really simple, but no one else is really talking about it. And so making sure you go and follow on your own Instagram, make sure you head over. I've linked everything I put in the show notes. So you can go check out heart where she does her services. You can check out her content and make sure you follow her on all the platforms, even on Pinterest. She loves to plan out her time and but make sure you go check her out because honestly your business will be very, very thankful. So next week on entrepreneurial Outlaws, we are going to be talking about content creation, right?

Melanie Knights (01:14:13):

And I saw a followup from today's conversation around Instagram and marketing. We're going to be talking about content creation, but maybe in a slightly different way, we're going to be talking about the five stages of content creation. And rather than that, being a focus on what you should write or how to be a better writer, because honestly, I believe that we all have the ability to write great content. We're going to dig into some of the really cool, the root problems when it comes to creating content, especially as creatives and intuitives and empaths, because oftentimes these kinds of plug and play these copy and paste contents, content ideas, they don't feel right for us. We've talked about this before we even got into it on today's episode with Angela, she shared her thoughts. And when I really look at content creation, there is a whole heap of rules around how we're supposed to behave or how we're supposed to navigate content creation.

Melanie Knights (01:15:20):

And I'm just not really here for that. So in next week's episode, we're going to actually dig into these five stages. Now I'm going to take you on a journey because I have a lot of analogies and there's a lot of parallels between the way songwriters write songs and the ways in which we can be creating our content. And I have a whole heap of research that I've done on this that took me down a whole other rabbit hole of information. So next week's episode is going to be really fun. You are going to leave the episode, understanding how to tap into your inspiration, how to tap into your creativity, even when you feel like you have none, you know, when you open that Google doc and that's just like, Cass is just like blinking at you. And you're like, Oh my God, I have to write something well again, and learn how to navigate that and how to actually combat that. So you don't have to sit there looking at a blank, Google doc going crazy. So that's next week. I'm really, I'm looking forward to having you listen to that episode, but for now, make sure you head over to stray notes, make sure you follow ANU on Instagram and all platforms. And yeah, I'll see you next week for episode 31. So until next week,

Melanie Knights (01:16:40):

Thank you so much for tuning in to today's episode of entrepreneurial Outlaws. If you see yourself as an entrepreneurial outlaw and enjoyed this episode with you do me a favor, it would mean the absolute world to me. If you could take a moment to subscribe to the show and leave a rating and review by leaving a review, you were helping me to grow out will community and together we can show other entrepreneurs that breaking the rules can actually be good for business. Don't forget. You can find the show notes for today's episode, along with any of the links that I mentioned on my website@melanienights.com forward slash podcast. And if we're not already virtual besties, you can come and hang out with me on Instagram. I am the one with the country music playing the lukewarm coffee in my hand, and I'm dishing the doubt on how we can make entrepreneurship more inclusive and transparent. Plus I'll probably send you some fun gifts. So until next time Outlaws

Melanie Knights (01:17:44):

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